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Comments
CnT January 30, 2012 at 10:10 p.m.
Ok so i'm new to this so before people rip into me, hear me out... Ive grown up on a farm that unfortunatly had to stop milking and ended up just producing beef. However when we were producing milk I at a young age noticed the 'pin' bones of the cows, so I asked my grandfather why and being a dairy man all of his life, he told me truthfully that the reason was simply in the breeding of continental breeds (friesains/ holstines) he said that they aren't multi-purpose breeds (yes you could sell them as beef but they took alot more time to mature) and so mainly used for dairy. He also told me that you couldnt take a calf away too early otherwise the amount of collostrum in the milk would be too high for human consumption. We used 2 bulls on our herd either a bull to produce full blooded dairy calves or a bull to produce beef calves. Anyway back to the welfare of dairy herds, at just before 4am our herd would follow the same track in the field all the way to the parlour on there own without any assistance sometimes the only thing we would do was stand at the shed door and call them, if our cows were unhappy then they wouldnt come when we called them. Also if a cow had mastitus then by hell she would be a nightmare to even get into the shed let alone milk!! Cows have a knack of telling us what is wrong wether its by refusing to come into the shed or when they do come into the shed she would kick the hell out of us if we got near. Our cows would even fight to get into the shed first, this to me showed that they were happy with what we did with them. Its not just mastitus that cows get but also they can become ill if when they still produce milk without a calf at foot dont get relieved from the milk failing that she would just leak and leak which again can cause infection. I dont think its wrong to produce milk from cows I just think there is a line between happy cow and unhappy cow and this is what needs to be dealt with. I have known cows to be skinny even after examinations from vets and a detailed look into feed, sometimes its just what happens. Also the gestation period for a cow is 9 months so obv course they are going to be pregnant for 9 months of the year!! I think what would help people understand dairy farming etc would be to be able to trace the cow your milk came from just like you can do with any burger from MCDonalds as all cows now have passports.
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catscowsgiraffe January 22, 2012 at 7:51 p.m.
I think cows are amazing (see the username). I cant really give you a real, solid reason but cows matter too. Its great that a lot more people now are buying free range/ organic eggs but we need to focus on other farm animals too. I think it's important to buy organic milk but sometimes it is a bit more expensive! I dont get it! It's like we're paying for the animals to have good living, we shouldnt have to, it should happen anyway.
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lily684 June 11, 2011 at 10:27 p.m.
I don't usually think about the welfare of cows, when I buy dairy products although I usually buy organic products. I have lived on a dairy farm, I think that only a small majority of cows are kept in poor conditions. Most breeds of cows which are used for milking are naturally thin anyway, it's not that they have been under fed or not cared for properly. All farmers have to comply with the 'Farm Assurance Schemes' which keeps the cows welfare to certain standards. It is also in most farmer's interests to keep their cows healthy, feed them properly and keep them in good conditions anyway as this would improve the amount of milk they give.
In relation to taking the calves away, on our farm we used to feed them actual cows milk anyway and would take the calves away after a few days because the cows would be producing to much milk for the calf to drink.
I think that most cows are kept in good conditions which only a few exceptions.
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waterlily April 8, 2011 at 1:27 p.m.
Im a vegan so as a vegan I drink soya milk which i feel is so much more healthier. I do this for the cows as it's their milk and im doing my part by not taking what should belong to their calf. A vegan diet is only expensive if you make it expensive and as a result, im much happier and healthier this way. I can go to bed each night knowing that I haven't taken away a poor tired cows milk which was meant for her calf and only her calf.
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Maddiexx November 18, 2010 at 6:28 p.m.
I have been looking at the issue of dairy cows at college.
Its disgusting the way some farmers keep their cows.
Dairy cows, are bred pacifically for their high yield. They are bred to be 'square' shape, with extremely large udders.
The effects of the way these cows are bred to look, are that they're legs and hooves are put under enormous pressure as their bodies are made to be so large, therefore they suffer from lameness quite a lot.
Dairy cows are also so over milked that they are prone to mastitis which is a painful inflammation of the udder which is caused by bacterial infection.
The welfare of dairy cows can be appalling. It is important that we buy products that are free-range.
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lindaluvdup November 10, 2010 at 10:52 a.m.
You kind of get higher welfare choices all over the place now, organic and free-range, but it's really not enough.
They keep cows pregnant to get the milk, often calves are literally dragged away from the mother days after being born - you see, the milk is for selling, not for the calf as the calf is just a means to an end.
I'm guilty too - I gave up meat over 30 years ago but am too weak to give up dairy; had I known the truth then, I'd probably have carried on eating meat and given up dairy. I have soya milk but my worst weaknesses are cheese, chocolate and eggs. I'd love to stop all dairy, and keep my own happy chickens, but I'm weak so I try to do the next best but I now understand "organic" doesn't necessarily mean the cows have a better life - we need full, open and honest information!
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Beckiizii August 25, 2010 at 11:25 a.m.
I totally agree with VeggieLibby as cows shouldn't have their milk taken when it could be used to raise new life! My family and I always buy free-range eggs and organic milk as we think the welfare of animals is highy important. Stop the slaughter of animlas and protect them instead!
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VeggieLibby April 7, 2010 at 12:59 p.m.
PLEASE READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dear reader
Firstly I praise vegans! If I was to be vegan it would be for the fact that I dont think we should take an animals milk!
Every living thing has ways of nuturing it's young and a cow produces milk like any other mammal!
THIS MILK IS FOR THE BABY COW!
Not for our enjoyment? And what happens to the baby cow when all the mothers milk has been taken away?
Problem solved! "we will just take it to the slaughter house anyway..."
This is disgusting behaviour!
I would love to be vegan but it is not convenient! I do milk my own goats who are not kidding at the moment and if they were I can assure you I would go without milk so the baby would get all the nutrition it needed!
Thankyou
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Puppy28 March 7, 2010 at 4:21 p.m.
I read the label on my milk and it says it's for Animal Welfare
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animalrspca February 10, 2010 at 4:33 p.m.
Welfare of cows is important as any other animals welfare so try to buy higher welfare dairy produce!
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Thumper February 5, 2010 at 3:12 p.m.
I buy dairy products that are advertised as high welfare and apparently come from happy cows that are free to roam around in their fields. I don't have any proof that the cows are treated well, but if they are abused then the companies are guilty of false advertising, which is illegal and therefore unlikely.
I don't buy much dairy because I'm allergic to something in milk. I haven't really thought much about going completely vegan as I'm yet to find substitutes for certain things in dairy, mainly B vitamins. If I can find substitutes then it'll definitely be worth thinking about though.
I do think about cows sometimes, but it doesn't make me feel guilty. Due to the way they've evolved, if cows weren't milked that would be a problem. In the natural world humans were never meant to consume dairy, but there are a lot of things we do that we weren't necessarily meant to.
Some cows do get abused and some don't. Don't judge the industry as a whole - each farm is different and they are not all on the same wavelength. On some farms they inject the animals with growth hormones, which is dangerous not only to the animals but to the consumers too. Some are organic though, and there are many farms who treat their animals kindly.
Where I live I'm surrounded by farms and fields, and they're not necessarily cruel, no matter what people may assume. Put it this way: about a quarter or so of people I know who work on farms are vegetarians (and one vegan). You just can't be too quick to judge.
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Taw247 January 5, 2010 at 4:31 p.m.
Dear VeganXchix your obviously very compassionate about the fact your vegan. Here at Taw 24 7. I am manager and im vegetarion after seeing the cruelty involved in the farming industry when I was younger. However I have always thought dairy cows lived in a field and lived a long happy life. Cows need to be milked so Im not quite sure what to think of the issue do you have any comments for that as I would love to hear them as Im thinking of becoming Vegan after reading comments on this page. Thankyou. email- taw247@live.co.uk.
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Puppy28 December 10, 2009 at 6:43 p.m.
i sometimes think about cows and thought about not drinking milk but i never have stopped.
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tattooedgirlie September 21, 2009 at midnight
PETA NEEDS YOU!!
Come participate in a fun, one-of-a-kind demonstration on Saturday, 3 October, to urge Selfridges to stop selling foie gras
To create foie gras - French for "fatty
liver" - up to 2 kgs of a mixture of grain, maize and fat is pumped into
the stomachs of ducks and geese through a pipe two or three times a day for
three weeks. As the birds' livers become diseased and expand to up to 10 times
their normal size, the animals become sick, and many are unable to move. The
pipes sometimes puncture the birds' throats, which may cause them to bleed to
death.
Foie gras production is banned in the UK and more
than a dozen other countries. More than 60 per cent of Britons believe that foie
gras sales should also be banned. Not one supermarket will sell foie gras in
the UK. Foie gras has also been pulled from the shelves of House of Fraser,
Prince Charles has banned it from Royal menus and the Pope has denounced it as
cruel.
We'd like to make this demonstration as
large and noticeable as possible. Won't you please join?
The demonstration will take place outside Selfridges at 400 Oxford Street at 11 am and last for 30 minutes. However, we will meet in a location close to (but not in front of) Selfridges at 9:45 am sharp to talk through the event.
Our goal is to get 100 compassionate people out for this eye-catching demonstration. Each participant will be given a duck mask to represent the ducks and geese who are used to make the fois gras sold at Selfridges. Some people will also hold signs, while others will distribute leaflets.
It's important that you please RSVP writing to RoseG@peta.org.uk with "Birdie" in the subject line of your e-mail. The meeting location, dress code, lyrics of the chant, instructions on the dance and other fun details will be sent (to people who RSVP) closer to the date of the demonstration.
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fsnowflake August 4, 2009 at 2:26 a.m.
Everyone of course has their own opinion on this and i'm not saying i'm right i'd just like people to see things the way I do temporarily. Forgetting all about supermarkets and food at the very origins most of us buy meat and dairy products to consume in our diet. When you take away the labels 'meat' and words that make us think of food and not living beings, like 'beef' 'pork'. If you forget that and consider that in fact you are consuming the flesh of a cow a pig etc. It makes alot of people feel ill. And so they should. A true carnivore would eat anything it killed. So ask yourself, when you run over a rabbit at the side of the road. Do you feel peckish? Why not reverse back and take a bite?
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Goblin89 June 25, 2009 at 10:27 p.m.
What angers me is that Western society has made us think that we NEED animal products to live healthily, partially to imitate a lifestyle that in the past only the wealthy had.
Those who eat dairy products directly support the meat industry, this goes for organic milk too, so vegetarians aren't making as big a statement as they'd like to, as when the cow is used until it's virtually dead, it is slaughtered for meat. Not a nice life.
As sentient beings, animals deserve nothing less than a life free of pain, suffering and expolitation. As far as I'm concerned, animal welfare is a joke. As humans, we do not have the inherent right to subjugate other beings for our own purposes; we call that slavery, and it's no different with animals. There is no humane slaughter, exploitation or abuse of animals- "If you're a slave and you live in a bigger room, aren't you still a slave?" (Vegan Freak by Torres & Torres)
Also, people who eat dairy should know that it has puss in it. Cows are made to produce 2000 gallons of milk EACH per year, anyone's breasts would be sore in a pump for hours and hours in a day, and puss isn't filtered out. Nor are the ridiculous amounts of antibiotics and even nastier chemicals that the cows are injected with to keep them alive in such horrific conditions- meaning you're ingesting that too, so becoming immune to medicine, weakening the immune system.
For the cows to produce milk, they must be pregnant and are kept pregnant for 9 months out of every year. It is a fact that the calves are taken from their mothers within 48 hours and given formula; the farmers keep the milk. Not disimilar to prostitutes who are exploited for sex and must give all that they earn to a pimp. Unproductive or under-productive cows are sent to slaughter.
Many people can't imagine any other life for farm animals than what they see in story books, I suppose ignorance is bliss, but we need to stop being ignorant and realise there is a massive problem here; stop being hypocrites and stop consuming the amount and types of products we buy and eat. The very wonderful thruth is that as humans, we can live very healthily and ethically without consuming any animal products.
Anyone who feels compassionately about this (which should be everyone viewing and blogging here!) should read Vegan Freak- even if you're not considering becoming vegan. This book is very educational on factory farming amongst other issues, I highly recommend it for anyone who is interested in animal rights.
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McAdam June 14, 2009 at 9:39 p.m.
I have thought about the welfare of dairy cows before.But unfortunately I haven't applied the same thoughts when I actually go to buy my dairy produce at the supermarket.But I think a lot of people like myself when it comes to going to the shop or supermarket go into a sort of trance and get what they usually get without thinking about it.The real problem is we arent seeing what is done,we arent made aware of what is done for that produce to get to our shelf.We just see the neatly packaged "item" afterwards.
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HorsezRock June 10, 2009 at 7:29 p.m.
I agree that eating animals and animal produce is wrong but it is part of the circle of life and natural instincts. I also agree that milking out our cows is unnaceptable, cant we stop taking and wanting and start giving and learning. I am not a vegetarian but I do eat free range meat and dairy products and have vegan lip balm.
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Mags53 June 1, 2009 at 7:36 p.m.
Sue - the link to TB has been in place for deacdes, it isn't recent; Mad Cow disease was caused by animal food companies putting dead animals into the feed for herbivores - farmers have suffered, I know farmers who were heart broken at the problem (and foot and mouth). Most farmers care for their animals, they have to or the animals wouldn't be productive . However, they don't put little coats on them and snuggle them down in the house - the cows, etc. probably prefer it that way
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cafeaulait May 28, 2009 at 2:06 p.m.
farmer pete
thanks for this, can spontaneous visits be arranged, for reasons of authenticity? i will contact them to arrange a visit later as i am travelling overseas on this date. i am looking to see a real intensive farm in action.
do you think that the cow suffers when its calf is taken? what do you think about the painful condition mastitis?
also vegans would provide a home to a pet which was abandoned or one which hasn't been commercially produced. commercial production produces surplus animals and the next generation of strays. vegans should only look after abandoned animals or be companion to an animal who is free to come and go as it pleases, ie a person who own lots of land.
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farmerpete May 28, 2009 at 8:02 a.m.
cafeaulait
here is a website where you can find a farm to visit on sunday 7th june 2009.
http://www.farmsunday.org/ofs/visit/farmvisit.eb
this event is in its 4th year now.
to all the vegans out there do u have any pets at home?
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cafeaulait May 27, 2009 at 3:59 p.m.
also dffl, this was a strange comment about the animals dying if everyone went vegan, OBVIOUSLY this would be phased in as the last meat orders were received. so know animals would die, they just simply wouldn't be bred anymore.
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cafeaulait May 27, 2009 at 3:52 p.m.
farmer pete, i would love to come and see a farm in action, but i have done web searches and can't find out how i would do that???!! don't know of any farmers that would allow the public to visit.
dffl, people do care how their milk is produced, most people assumed it is in a humane way. eg we are told from toddlers that cows are happy bla bla bla i never knew until recently that the male calves are surplus and that calves are taken from their mothers, this was conveniently hidden from the dairy story.
the fact that you have a hard career in dairy does not justify cutting corners on animal welfare for cost savings. the reason why people are so apathetic is that the dairy generates a lot of revenue and taxes so many people have vested interest like yourself, government, the complete supply chain so you can never be truly unbiased. the only truly unbiased parties are animal welfare advocates.
yes it is our business and everybody's business, when a private company operates it has a duty to all its stakeholders to operate ethically.
maybe if there was a lot more transparency people could make informed decisions about what they are really consuming.
the public need a realistic advertisement for dairy...
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dffl May 27, 2009 at 2:30 p.m.
farmer pete first bit of sense i seen on here! what were you lot doing over the bank holiday weekend? working 18 hour days getting silage in to feed the cows over the winter. up early in the morning to milk and feed cows? most likely not i remember 4 days since friday 18 hours working 6 hours sleep caring for cattle im sure you havent been and farmerpete i agree with everything you say
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farmerpete May 27, 2009 at 10:48 a.m.
you all know nothing about the dairy industry, you properly have never visited a working farm and seen how hard we as farmers/herdspeople work on a daily basis on caring for these animals.
The work we do is a lifestyle not a job, caring for these animals is a 24hour job (just ask are wife's) we work from very early in the morning to very late at night caring for these animals.
comment made by the rspca are not true and they have no evidence to prove there comments made in the article.
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smintaj May 26, 2009 at 9:53 p.m.
dffl, there is no chance that we all go vegan in one day, so don't worry; no one will kill all animals. cutting down on breeding cows, and other livestock, would be enough, can you imagine that?
[sorry if i made any mistakes, english is my second language]
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devilsdance May 26, 2009 at 8:25 p.m.
All is up to consumers now-just let's not buy milk from factory farms only from ecological farms-organic. Undoubtedly the best thing would be to stop eating meat and the problem of animal welfare would be solved once and for all. But this will never happen-people are too selfish.....
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dffl May 21, 2009 at 9:56 p.m.
so if we all went vegan then all farm animals would die as no one would look after them simple just kill them all
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VeganxChick May 21, 2009 at 8:31 p.m.
Anyone who consumes dairy clearly do not care about animals! Dairy cows suffer just as much if not worce than any animal that is directly affected by the evil meat industry! If you love animals then go vegan.
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dffl May 21, 2009 at 6:49 p.m.
hannah67 i have noticed the same with the rspca. in the articals i found i can see clear evidence which is something i have been unable to find on the rspca website. as there is the evidence there i agree with it. farmers dont just have something against badgers its due to the effects of them and there is evidence to prove it. if badgers are free of tb i see no problem with them but i believe the ones with tb should be culled to stop the spread of the disease
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Hannah67 May 21, 2009 at 5:51 p.m.
dffl - If I read all of these "farmer opinions" that you have given us links to, won't they all be a little one sided, especially regarding TB?
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dffl May 20, 2009 at 3:13 p.m.
politics this time http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2009/05/20/115692/tories-promise-badger-cull-in-tb-battle.html
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dffl May 19, 2009 at 10:02 p.m.
i would think there should be improvements. im not a person who is for factory farming i like to see cows out in fields aslong as possible and not housed all year round but certain systems mean this has to be done and the amount of food need to be produced this has to take place
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givepigspace May 19, 2009 at 9:24 p.m.
Good,...so we're all agreed; The welfare of dairy cows needs to be improved.
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dffl May 18, 2009 at 8:21 p.m.
http://www.fwi.co.uk/community/forums/countryfilerspca-targets-dairy-cow-welfare-29796.aspx some interesting reading there and i think some good points worth reading
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dffl May 18, 2009 at 5:40 p.m.
well a good start would be enough money paid for the products as it costs to produce so more effort is able to be put into welfare standards
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Hannah67 May 18, 2009 at 5:34 p.m.
To dffl - so how do you think that the welfare of dairy cows can be improved?
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dffl May 18, 2009 at 3:27 p.m.
first of all im not having ago at people. but being in the sector i am i think it very annoying when alligations such as this are bought by people who know very little about the subject. i am just stating facts on here that i have found and think the views need to be shared. and sue your last comment is very true about cows being healthier years ago. there were less people needing to be fed and there was more land for this to take place. these days farming has to be on big scale to keep people fed so fertilizers have to be used
so the food can be produced. and also the tb im not just putting this here for the fun of it. there is lots of scientific evidence proving this point. there are many places this imforamtion can be attained im sure of you actually try looking for it you are going to find alot of evidnce for this!
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Sue May 18, 2009 at 12:39 p.m.
I don't seek to criticise any of the views expressed on this post because I know nothing about running a dairy herd and I am not a researcher who has done any work in this field. Everyone comes to this forum from their own different backgrounds and experience, giving varied perspectives on the issue - and to that extent every voice and opinion is valid. Cows have been around forever, well, you know what I mean. I don't suppose that in my great grandfather's time, animal feed contained half the chemicals/growth supplements, or whatever, which we are led to understand are available now. So were cows healthier then? (not that there will be anyone old enough to remember!) As a child growing up, I don't recall there being all these diseases in animals. I suppose what I am saying is that possibly, as with a lot of other things, the old methods may have been the best. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong here, but it just seems to me that all these issues with bovine TB and Mad Cow disease are very much things of our time, so maybe we should look backwards for our answers. In relation to the bovine TB issue, I agree with Mags, based on my limited experience in this field. Anyway badgers have probably been around as long as cows, so why has the TB link only relatively recently been made?
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MELANIE25 May 18, 2009 at 10:12 a.m.
I'm not an expert and don't work in the farming sector but do live in the middle of farms with cows.
It seems to me that the cows are in poor health as you can see their ribs and hhip bones, a lot appear to be lame and they shuffle backwards and forwards between their fields to the milking parlour.
I buy organic milk as I don't want to drink anything that comes from a miserable animal, likewise all my meat is organic. I do have a friend who works on dairy farms and the things that happen on them are just plain awful.
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Mags53 May 17, 2009 at 10:06 p.m.
The Bovine TB and a possible link to badgers debate has gone on for decades - badgers were once culled almost to the point of extinction -bovine TB was not eradicated. There is no proven, reliable link between the two, badgers do not suffer from TB but they do carry a form of the disease. TB in humans is already in this country, is largely becoming resistant to anti-biotics and has probably been brought back into the country by immigrants from countries where it is still rife. Welfare in dairy cows - we only get milk because a calf is removed from its mother at a few hours old. In this country dairy cows are relatively free-range - our weather is condusive to good pasture for dairy farmimg. The calves become dairy cows themsleves or are put into the food chain. Milk is really an unnatural product for adult consumption - it's intended to be a food for the baby of the species - but, I love cheese and drink lots of milk. As with all of these debates, there is no need to treat the cows badly, in fact if they aren't looked after well their milk would dry-up - as to the idea that organic cows are not fed well, what absolute piffle! It's perfectly possible to produce feedstuffs (grass ,etc.) organically, that is enough to feed cows well
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Hannah67 May 17, 2009 at 9:33 p.m.
To givepigspace - I just said to Dffl that I would trust the farmers weekly, I don't know why I said that as I don't know anything about it! I also agree with the TB arguement, I believe that it hasn't actually been proved that it comes directly from badgers?
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Hannah67 May 17, 2009 at 9:29 p.m.
dffl - I actually haven't look at any websites on this matter. I haven't lived on a large farm, but I do live on a small holding (I know its a different thing) and I am surrounded by farm land with mainly cows. But I don't take much notice of the cows, and I don't know a lot about cows at all. I think your being a bit harsh towards people. You may think that a lot of people don't have a clue, but you don't know the backgrounds of any of these people. I agree with you that probably the best places to look for info is from the people who I assume know best, such as farmers weekly and nfu. I think this website might be to show the rspca what people think about things then maybe they base their campaigns on who well they think people are educated/informed on the matter. So it doesn't really matter how little I or anyone else knows. I'm not sure who your aiming your rants at but I don't really think your research is "crap". You probably know a lot seeing as you do work on a dairy farm. I don't know much about bovine TB. I'm not really agreeing with the info you are saying about TB, as for all I know, as your some sort of farmer, that your comments may be bias. Farmers care about their cattle, Badger's trust care about badgers. So who is right? Perhaps keeping British wildlife is extremily important to people.
I wouldn't say that the welfare is only to do with consumers. In a previous post you said this "supermarkets are the start of problems milk price to low so cant really worry about welfare standards and investing". I believe that EVERYONE that consumes dairy and beef is a part of this, so are farmers, so are supermarkets. Consumers and supermarkets are indirectly responsible, but farmers are directly responsible for the animals welfare. I try and buy British products as often as I can. You say that organic products are even worse than standard, who's to blame then for ill-informing the consumer? To be honest you don't sound like someone who runs a successful business - more a tantrum-throwing-brat! Perhaps if you help us to understand what's what, instead of having a go then people may listen to your opinions!
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dffl May 17, 2009 at 8:16 p.m.
givepigsspace- well welfare standards who's fault the consumers. if you muct buy foreign good's pay as little as possible for it then what do you expect.i dont trust information off the rspca website and simular sites. im gonna be honest its crap! what do these people know what do you know. do you live on a farm, work with live stock have any idea in how a farm is ran and how live stock is kept. i would think not so once you have your own heard of cattle and run a succesful business with people such as yourself bringing up issues such as this which how very little importance then go ahead. i personaly hope that you all start to starve as it is going to happen and i really would like it to, then people such as your selfs may stop complaining and get on with your lives and stop getting into businesses that have no concerne to you. i bet your gonna reply moaning about what i have just put but all this has been proved and your just stuck in your own little world hiding your self from the truth!
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givepigspace May 17, 2009 at 8:04 p.m.
Somebody is taking up far too much space with their ill-informed pro-industry propaganda, on this comments board which is supposed to be about exposing the animal welfare issues within the dairy industry.
I wouldn't trust either The Farmers Weekly magazine, or the NFU, regarding concerns for welfare of badgers or cows. Profit seems to be their main motivation.
Both of these organisations have been involved with promoting the export of very young dairy bull calves to continental rearing units at the expense of good animal welfare.
Also with calling for the slaughter of badger families,bacause of abhorrent cattle culling policies by Defra.
Badgers are not responsible for the inaccurate Tb tests, where cows are killed following a positive result to a tuberculin test, only to be found to be free of the disease at post mortem.
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dffl May 17, 2009 at 5:58 p.m.
http://www.fwi.co.uk/community/forums/p/29796/118897.aspx?PageIndex=1 some more infomation from people in the industry
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dffl May 16, 2009 at 1:04 p.m.
Badger TB. Soon There Will Be No Badgers
Yet again the spread of TB is progressing through the different species, it won't be long before it comes into Human population as Swine Flu is now. It's only a generation since it was eradicated from humans in this country.
I was reading last weeks FW (8th May) and the article about the pig herd infected. Now this weeks has 14 (yes Fourteen) different species infected with TB. Bovine TB Blog has some good points about the fact that the so called Badger Trust burrying it's head in the sand about this disease. It is a awful disease. No farmer would allow an animal to suffer in the way badgers must suffer with TB.
It is quite simple really, if there is not a cull of badgers soon then within ten years there will be no badgers for the badger trust to protect let alone the damage done to many other species of wildlife. It's not about cute stripy animals, I don't want to see a widespread cull, but it is too late. To little has been done for too long. Mass cull is the only way to control this now otherwise TB will become to badgers what Myxomatosis was to rabbits.
From http://www.fwi.co.uk/community/blogs/viewfromtheotherside/archive/2009/05/15/badger-tb-soon-there-will-be-no-badgers.aspx can read for yourself if you like some proper NONE BIAST information!
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dffl May 16, 2009 at 11:10 a.m.
as working in this sector i know more than the biast websites you gain your infomation from. have you lot ever been on a farm, seen from bith sides. you look at an organic cow there general health is far lower then that of conventional as saying factory farming is not true. i was simply answering questions from other users its the people such as yourselfs that are doing more damage than anything else. alot of farmers dont really care about welfare levels as people like you come along and everything that happens is wrong to be honest you lot dont have a clue and i would believe you need to search further than rspca and these other websites devoted to the same cause. look on websites such as farmers weekly, nfu you will find much more infomation there that is fact. this infomation i have posted i have a bovine vet look at the other day and he agreeded with me completely. so before you say what im putting is "crap" research it! what im informing you is fact from the industry what you are saying is something some one in an office has most likely come up with who does not have a clue about dairy farming and the general going on's. once you have got solid evidence proved by science and is backed up by farmers. boivine vets and goverment ministers then you may change my mind but as it is all the infomation i have is fact and is from none biast sources!
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Hannah67 May 16, 2009 at 10:02 a.m.
Bodcake – I’m not really taking in what dffl says. If an organic cow contracted decease then wouldn’t it be withdrawn from the production line anyway? So surely it would be treatable then, or would it be destroyed?
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Bodcake May 16, 2009 at 12:49 a.m.
Dffl - This isn't a forum to score "brownie points" off each other: the bottom line is ' how can we improve the welfare of dairy cows'?
It doesn't help when you are writing defamatory remarks such as "organic cows lack vital parts to (sic) there diets" and that they are "under-fed"! This is blatantly not true! Unfortunately, bloggers such as Hannah67, who may have very little information on the industry etc, are at risk of being misinformed by much of what you write. What a shame.
CIWF is a highly respected organisation which commissions scientific studies into the effects of factory farming, it's welfare implications, and impact on consumer health.
Please visit our website to find out where you can buy milk from producers who don't allow calf exports, or kill them at birth.
For any blogger who wants to gain better insight into the complexities of this industry please do not rely on the dubious words of dffl!
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dffl May 15, 2009 at 7:38 p.m.
i would say there is no difference in way they are treated its just organic cows will get diseases that due to being organic can not be treated and they die slowly of it.
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Hannah67 May 15, 2009 at 5:17 p.m.
to dffl - but in general, do organic cows have a better quality of life?
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dffl May 14, 2009 at 10:53 p.m.
Bobcake if you call being under fed a good welfare then organic is good. organic cows lack vital parts to there diets as is not possible to have in an organic system. along with disease such as worms in cattle. organic cows once they get them they can not be cured as no vaccinations can be used so the cattle die a slow painful death. also better quality in organic is untrue there is no evidence to prove this. organic milk is sold with a cell count of around 400 where as if not organic cell count levels are generaly between 100-150. this is due to diseases such as mastitus. in none organic this can not be dealt with. organic may look good written on paper you research is and look at actual satistics you will find there is no diffrence in it and with bull dairy bull calves organic are still shot at birth or exported there is no differnece there you should research this imformation first before you start posting on here like i have!
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Bodcake May 14, 2009 at 10:30 p.m.
Very interesting comments being made here.
I agree with many points, including the complexities of market forces, the role the supermarkets play, and so on.
For those of you who would like to read more on the dairy industry, may I suggest looking at the Compassion in World Farming website? CIWF commissions studies into various farming issues, including this subject.
The dairy industry is a cruel one, despite protestations to the contrary, and yes, our farmers do get a "raw deal".
However, if you want to make a difference to the welfare of dairy cows, please buy organic milk, cheese etc. Cows farmed in an organic system have a far superior welfare standard, and the bull calves born to the herd are not exported abroad for veal or shot at birth (which is often the case in standard systems)
For further information visit: ciwf.org
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givepigspace May 14, 2009 at 9:43 p.m.
Dairy bull calves.......now there's an issue.
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dffl May 14, 2009 at 8 p.m.
i have aquired more information on badgers. a report you may like to research is the Krebbs report. this was an idependent report and you will find it good reading. further more bovine vet's also believe that badgers are the reason bovine tb is spread. also with this fact defra is well aware of this situation but no action is taken due to the general public. the public have no understanding of this matter and need to research the fact before they come up with the ideas that they do. dont believe what the infomation you find on websites such as this research as there is plenty of evidence for and you just need to look deeper and in the correct places!
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dffl May 14, 2009 at 5:15 p.m.
sue- i noticed your bit about badgers. personaly i have found evidence linking tb to badgers. throughout winter the cows are housed indoors and are tb free. during spring they are fine as no badger sets near fields they are in but in late summer they get to some of the silage fields with badger sets and suddenly tb arises to me this is evidence. if you look at www.fwi.co.uk you often find infomation on it that there is scientific evidence that badgers carry tb. also nfu (national farmers union) there is alot of infomation they have attained to prove this correct. farmers dont just blame badgers as an easy target there is reasons and that there has been evidence to prove this. and with the interbreed issue this is mainly in highly pedigree cows. on searching through cows records i found no interbreeding with in a 110 cow heard and i am sure many are the same it's just the "media" exaggurating the point!
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Sue May 14, 2009 at 12:01 p.m.
dffl - it is good to know that on the dairy farm where you work, the animals are well looked after, and in any event, I would imagine that if they were not, the milk yield would suffer. For this reason I would like to think that most dairy cows are reasonably well treated on their farms, though I do not doubt that someone is going to submit a post in contradiction to this! I would personally pay more for my milk. I am not a large scale milk consumer it has to be said, but I do use cream in cooking and I eat other dairy products such as cheese and butter. I would pay more for all these products. I think most people would. I sometimes think it is a bit of a nonsense to say that people will not pay more, because if the alternative is doing without, then of course they will pay more. Yes, they will grumble about it, and they may shop around a bit, like they do for other things, but if there was a minimum basic price which supermarkets couldn't undercut, then what choice would the consumer have? However, having said all this, overbreeding remains a concern, and I also wonder about feed, and whether additives to food contribute to some of the many diseases cows suffer with. So far as badgers are concerned, my understanding always was that there is no conclusive scientific proof that badgers spread TB to cows, and this is why the badger cull in Wales is so fiercely opposed.
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dffl May 13, 2009 at 8:01 p.m.
supermarkets are the start of problems milk price to low so cant really worry about welfare standards and investing. where i live/ work on a dairy farm welfare standards are resonable cows are out in fields as long as weather alows cubical housing and large airy and comftable and feed quality is good. still what ever happens with cows there are going to be issues such as lameness and simular problems. another welfare i would like to point out is tb, cows are tested yearly with a test that is predicted to be around 40% reliable. so these cows that are tested and are shown to react possitively there is around a 60% chance they havent got it. to me this seems unfair that these cows are being culled when they have nothing wrong with them. what would you be thinking if you livelyhood was taken away just like that and you knew what a likely cause of the problem is. badgers! a Controversial but has been proved to be a cause. so why is it fair that cows should be tetsed for this and culled on just thinking they might have it. to me it seems as if the badgers should under go simular tests and be culled if they react to the test. cause cows and badgers both warm blooded mamals aren't they so why is it fair that badgers are left with the disease and cows are killed even if they dont have it! once again i look forward to reading some responses!
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Hannah67 May 13, 2009 at 7:40 p.m.
I think it is big supermarkets need to make big changes. The problem is supermarkets will always be greedy and will scrape together as much money they can get. This means that they will be uninclined to pay more to the farmer for a litre of milk. The only way I think they will happily pay more to the farmer is if consumers are willing to pay more for their pints of milk. I think the RSPCA should produce a program on dairy welfare as media always works, and they seem to have had a big success with the welfare of chickens, and now a lot more people are buying higher welfare standard chickens. I think the majority of people are unaware of the journey of the dairy produce that they buy. Obviously farmers will be the ones who would be directly changing the welfare standards of the cows, so in the end they will be the ones making the main changes.
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Sue May 13, 2009 at 2:15 p.m.
dffl - I agree with you absolutely that dairy farmers get paid ridiculously low prices for their produce, while they compete with produce from other countries in the EU who don't seem to be under the same pressure to meet standards and follow regulations. I am not sure if the issue of dairy cows being inter bred has any direct bearing on this, as that is just one of the major welfare concerns being talked about, but I do agree that dairy farmers are very hard working people who seem to get a poor return on what they do. I DO think these farmers deserve a better deal. Whether they would pass the financial benefit on to the cause of animal welfare by making life better for their herds is another matter -but still, I take the point that we can't have it both ways.
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dffl May 12, 2009 at 11:13 p.m.
alot of people dont know about the daiy industry. milk in the shops doesnt need to go up in price the supermarkets need to stop taking big cuts out of it. i personaly think milk prices need investergating as the supermarkets make it so that the proccessors have to buy it off farmers. supermarkets just have so much power and and running the farmers out of business but by doing that cows are sold and you find even bigger farms arising that are very intensive in all year round and feed on a very highly productiv tmr feed rashion. cows have to be treated as they are other wise people are going to be waking up with no milk for there cornflakes or to put in there coffee. the welfare issue does arise greatly due to the fact farmers are unable to produce in a diffrent way due to the price they are paid for the milk
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Hannah67 May 12, 2009 at 8:58 p.m.
To Veganxchick - It's great that you think about the welfare of cows. I have read a lot of your posts and see that you are very anti-meat consumerism! I don't know much about the dairy industry but have heard a little about it being slightly 'brutal'. You say that there is no need to eat dairy, you could be right, but dairy is a major part of a diet. Vegans can obviously be very healthy, but I think, as with meat, it is up to people what they chose to eat, unfortunatly at the expence of the poor animals. I don't eat meat, but the same as Sue, I do eat a lot of dairy. It would be nice to know a bit more about the welfare standards, but to be honest, at the moment dairy welfare does not seem to be on the agenda anywhere.
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Hannah67 May 12, 2009 at 8:52 p.m.
to ddfl - I think you are right, its easy for people to say that dairy farming is cruel, and that there needs to be higher welfare standards. But I think that what some people need to realise is that everyone who buys dairy products contributes to different aspects of the dairy industry. I think that the majority consumers would probably not happily pay more for a pint of milk, or if they had to there would certainly be an uproar. Many people want change to welfare standards, many people probably aren't bothered. Some people will be willing to pay more for a better product, some people aren't willing. I really think though that a LOT has to change - from the consumers, farmers, government etc, for any major welfare changes to happen. I have to admit, I don't think about where the dairy products come from, and their journey to my fridge. I think a lot of people probably feel the same way. I think this is the case because dairy is seen to be more of a by-product, and not like meat. Therefor people might just think that there aren't really any welfare issues to be concerned about. I myself do not know a lot about the dairy industry at all.
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dffl May 12, 2009 at 7:07 p.m.
personaly i would like to know how much you know about where you food comes from! i mean what do you lot know you think what you get told and thats it you dont see the other side do you. first of all the genaral welfare of cows is relaxed due to the low price of milk paid. the farmers are out there working all day everyday so ungreatful "towies" can feed. well why should they, no one cares do they aslong as they get food on there table dont care where it comes from. If farmers got paid more for the milk they sell its more likely welfare standards of dairy cattle are going to improve. 24p for a litre of milk to the dairy farmer, is this fair? No it isnt is it supermarkets there selling it for 60-70p per litre in the shop taking there cut out of it and making millions. is this fair, no it isnt is it dairy farmers are losing money on every litre of milk they sell and does any one care about that, no they care if the cows are living perfect lifes but that isnt possible is it with the price farmers are paid. if dairy farmers were paid more for the milk they sell its likely they would be able to invest and raise welfare standards but in bad finacial times and with large borrowings this is not possible so welfare qualities are relaxed as is not possible to comply with high standards. all the rules and regulations aswell that have to be kept up to. there is farm assurance and all that this countries farmers simply cant compete with foreign products as they have none of these rules. does it seem right that these products can be sold alongside eachother in shops as the same think. well no not really cause there not are they. they much lower quality and no one cares though do they. i think the people looking at this need to see evry side of this from organic to intensive and everything inbetween as to be honest you dont have a clue do you. just resarch it look into it and dont believe what your told as a dairy farmers all the infomation on here is not fact its fiction. its what people think not what they know. i look forward to hearing some responses!
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Sue May 12, 2009 at 3:50 p.m.
VeganxChick - that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but if I didn't eat meat (which I hardly do now) or dairy products (which I do) and given that I would not eat quorn and soya(as I hated soya milk when I tried it), beans, pulses, sunflower seeds, and anything of that ilk. Also given that my hectically busy lifestyle precludes a lot of other things on the basis of the time I don't have to prepare them, I would be living on microwaved jacket spuds with nothing in them because virtually nothing would fall outside the categories I have just mentioned. This, given the aforesaid hectically busy lifestyle I lead would mean I would soon be ill and unable to perform my duties or go about my daily life. So no, I cannot agree that there is "no need to eat dairy". I do not want cows to suffer and as my post has stated, I have changed my diet over the years, but as my post also states, I think the individual should be left to come to these conclusions themselves based on their own conscience and their own way of life. I will probably think more about dairy issues now than I once did, and in time I may change my habits gradually, like I did with meat. But that is very much a matter of individual choice, and it will be my choice, not yours, or anybody else's when and if it happens. I don't mean to offend in saying that, but I just don't think what you like and what you think tastes okay will ever influence what I eat because we are all different and your tastes in food, and maybe in other things, are not mine. It is a very personal choice, and one which most individuals will defend the right to make for themselves.
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VeganxChick May 12, 2009 at 3:08 p.m.
I very much think of the welfare of cows, in an ideal world they would all live their lives in a field, get treated with respect by kind people and this means not treating them like a milk producing machine! and if they got ill they would be looked after. But sadly when their 'milk producing' days are over they are brutally taken to an abotoir!
There is no need whatsoever to eat dairy. Apart from the fact that the poor cow suffers greatly - milk and other dairy products taste vile.
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daveb May 12, 2009 at 11:37 a.m.
PS. Yes, organic dairy produce is a bit more expensive - so I consume a little less which is better for me and for the environment.
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daveb May 12, 2009 at 11:36 a.m.
The supermarkets do offer organic milk and cheese and I only buy these...
The organic label doesn't just mean that no genetically modified feed was used and no toxic chemicals - it is also an indicator of good welfare potential for the animals involved.
Even buying organic is not a perfect guarantee of good animal welfare as there are still welfare issues (for instance organic certification doesn't prohibit the shooting at birth and/or long distance transport of unwanted male dairy calves to veal farms overseas).
So I suppose that, until you can know for sure that your dairy produce came from a dual purpose breed (suitable for both dairy and beef), you may be better off with soya milk!
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Sue May 12, 2009 at 10:44 a.m.
Actually, no, I have never thought about the welfare of cows when buying dairy products, and for one simple reason. I now never buy beef because I know it helps feed the demand for the animals being bred for food and slaughtered, which upsets me, similarly lamb and pork, but I have always seen milk (and its derivatives such as cream, cheese and butter) as a natural by-product which does not involve any cruelty to the animals. It seems I am wrong in this perception, because I did not appreciate that cows are being inbred to the extent that they are. As Clogs points out however, there is no higher welfare choice in our supermarkets, so even if I did think about the welfare of cows, what would my alternatives be? I am not a person who likes vegetables very much, so my practice of eating less meat means that I now consume more cheese and butter products, though I use milk sparingly and only in hot drinks. What an interesting and thought provoking topic.
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lyrani May 11, 2009 at 4:10 p.m.
That's why we buy organic!
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squeak May 11, 2009 at 10:07 a.m.
I have a problem that I'm lactose intolerant so have to have special cows milk with the lactose enzymes taken out. If they developed a higher welfare range for dairy products, would it include lactose free options?
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Clogs May 9, 2009 at 10:17 a.m.
I always buy free-range eggs and my partner buys free-range meat for him. But to be honest, I don't think about dairy cows when I buy milk or cheese. I think it's because the supermarkets don't give you a higher welfare choice?
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